Ep. 6 - Indiana Jones and the Sequels of Doom!

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[0:00] J.J.: So against my better judgment, yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and just ask you how your day was even though I have an idea of what it is you were going to be doing today? Yeah, you had mentioned a little bit about it. Yeah, and so I'm a little nervous to ask you how it went. It's been quite a day already. I had a nice casual morning, and then I went to a very long overdue massage slash chiropractic appointment now.

[0:36] Olaf: That does sound really nice.

[0:39] J.J.: Yeah, well the first part did. I'm not a big chiropractor guy. Well, there's nothing pleasant about this experience. I mean, it's a lot of elbows. Yeah, most people feel like they need to relax when they're at a massage. That's so far from what's going on in my sessions. Like my hands are clenched. I'm trying just to convince my body to breathe.

[1:05] Olaf: Yeah, you have to or it'll hurt more.

[1:07] J.J.: It's a pain like no other, but what he really loves to do is he's very liberal with the scraper. Now for anyone who doesn't know what a scraper is, it's basically just a very dull knife that they are just running over your skin, especially in the problem areas. My guess is if he can flay more skin off of my back, I don't think he can get closer, and nobody more in there because I don't even know why I...

[1:43] Olaf: Oh, your day was...

[1:44] J.J.: I'm just saying it's very painful and it plays into our topic today because speaking of torture, we are revisiting the last two Indiana Jones movies. They're just terrible. I appreciate you wearing your indie t-shirt.

[2:01] Olaf: I've got a different one. It's a different one than the last. I see that.

[2:04] J.J.: So I'm glad that we're doing this because we've already talked about the first three, and we decided we were going to not only jump into the last two but maybe, you know, dip our toe into the TV show that came after the third one as well and kind of put all these three together. I'm not gonna have the same feeling about the fifth one that you do.

[2:25] Olaf: So I'm glad that we're talking about it because we're gonna have differing opinions on it, which is gonna be nice.

[2:31] J.J.: It's gonna be nice. We're gonna be like Steven and George and Harrison, and instead of leaving well enough alone after talking about the wonderful trilogy, we're gonna keep going and drag everyone with us through just a sea of terrible. And I'm going to say that it's not—I don't share the same sentiment as you when it comes to the last one, so...

[2:53] Olaf: All right. All right. Well, let's get to it. Let's get back to the movie theater.

[3:04] J.J.: You.

[3:14] Olaf: Welcome to our podcast, my name is Olaf. We are two guys who love talking about movies, thinking about movies, watching movies, discussing movies, arguing, but I'm gonna ask you anyway so everybody else can be involved in how your day was.

[3:35] J.J.: And I am excited about talking about the rest of the Indiana Jones films and, you know, canon as it is because after we talked about the first three, which again, I said I would rewatch the second one and not to belabor what we've already talked about previously, but in our previous conversation I said, you know what? I think the second one I need to give it another look because maybe it's gonna—I’ll appreciate it a little bit more. And you know what? I did not.

[4:12] Olaf: And I'll tell you why. What I love about the first and third movies—and again, we're not gonna belabor this—is how much fun they are to watch, how much fun you have while you're watching them. And for me with the second one, watching it again with completely a fresh perspective because it had been such a really long time, I didn't have—it wasn't fun for me to watch.

[4:42] J.J.: Wait, you didn't have fun at Club Obi-Wan? You didn't have fun flying in an inflatable raft out of a plane? You didn't have fun riding elephants?

[4:51] Olaf: So what you've mentioned so far is the first ten minutes of the movie, and yes, the opening—like we've mentioned before, the opening in the first three movies is fantastic. Some would even argue that the opening in the fourth and fifth ones at least tried to be fun. The second one has a great opening. It's fun.

[5:11] J.J.: Yes, the raft—all of it up until they get to India and the elephants is fine, but you're making it sound like they know they're doing this whole elephant sequence when they're really not on the elephants that long—long enough for Harrison Ford. But once I get to the palace, it's like a whole bunch and not fun.

[5:31] Olaf: It's dark. Like we already know this. Like I said, I want to belabor it.

[5:35] J.J.: You didn't have fun in the room of spikes?

[5:40] Olaf: I didn't. At that point, by that point, I'm not a fan of Kate Capshaw's character. She did a great job, but I don't like her character. You made a great point about who she's supposed to be in this setting, and I completely agree with you, but it still doesn't change the fact that I could do without. Again, Short Round is the best addition to this franchise at this point, and overall, it was exactly like I thought it was before. It was just no. And then I rewatched three right after because I needed to cleanse my palate, and I'm like, yes, this is what I remember falling in love with with the franchise. This third movie from beginning to end, bringing back Brody, bringing back Sala, bringing back all of these pieces that you loved about the first one and executing it in a very strong way to where it doesn't feel forced. None of it felt forced in the third movie, bringing back the fun.

[6:36] Olaf: Yeah.

[6:37] J.J.: So I left, of course, watching the third one going, this is how they should have ended everything—riding off into the sunset—and this is how—and we would have been completely fine with closing out the '80s with a trilogy of films, two out of three knocking it out of the park. I'm okay with that.

[6:56] Olaf: And I'm laughing because of his face, y'all. He gives me this smirk like he's holding two in this really high regard, and they should have left it alone. But of course, like everything else, they have to—they want to bring— for some reason they want to bring Indiana Jones back, and they did.

[7:12] J.J.: Before we get into the fourth movie, which I think everybody can universally agree is complete garbage, I do want to touch on the show just for a moment because I rewatched the episode that Harrison Ford is actually in of the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles. And for those of you who don't know, and probably the only episode really worth watching—maybe. I mean, and for those of you, there may be people out there that don't realize that there was a TV series that could only be made in the '90s. Watching it and going, this is a show that could only have been made when it was made.

[7:49] Olaf: It was—I mean, technically it was like two series. They tried to do it; it wasn't going well, so they revamped a little bit, but they were already jumping back and forth between the young, young, young little boy Indiana Jones and the 16 to 20-year-old that we get for the majority of the series.

[8:09] J.J.: And it's only like—

[8:09] Olaf: Yeah, but don't forget the elderly.

[8:13] J.J.: I know, I know. Again, like I said, this only could have been made in the '90s. It was only 28 episodes, and only—and so it was a show called Young Indiana Jones Chronicles. It was on ABC, and I remember watching it when I was a kid because I obviously loved the movies. And so I thought, okay, so I rewatched the only episode that Harrison Ford is actually in. He's at the beginning and at the end of this particular episode, and it's called A Mystery of the Blues. Jeffrey Wright, Jane Krakowski are also in it, and throughout the course of the series, there are a bunch of other up-and-coming actors that kind of cut their teeth on the show.

[8:49] Olaf: And it was okay. It was a fun watch. I think the pacing of it was a little—it left a lot to be desired. Even the Harrison Ford sections, the bookends of the episode left a lot to be desired. He was kind of—he worked with what he had, but it was okay. Like, you know, there are other episodes that I wouldn't mind seeing, and now you can only watch them on YouTube. Disney Plus was carrying the show, but they're not carrying it anymore because they also realized what they had.

[9:18] J.J.: Basically, they relegated it to YouTube. The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles is a—what historic figure is he going to run into today? And if you're really curious about Indiana Jones and you really love everything about it and you just want to be exposed to everything that is Indiana Jones, give it a watch. It's not gonna be easy. It's gonna be boring. The pacing of it is not good.

[9:47] Olaf: Yeah, it's really—honestly, it's not worth anyone's time, and it should definitely not be considered canon.

[9:55] J.J.: Well, unless you're like, oh, I'm curious, is like in this particular episode with the Harrison Ford one, Young Indy is roommates with Elliot Ness, and the portrayal of Elliot Ness's character is terrible.

[10:07] Olaf: Yes, friends with Ernest Hemingway, and I guess Ernest Hemingway is like this freelance reporter for the Chicago Tribune, and then they run into Nicholas Turturro, who's like a very secondary tertiary character in this episode who happens to be Al Capone later on that you in this reveal.

[10:25] J.J.: Yeah, but Jeffrey Wright, it was a nice shining moment in this episode, and you could then see why he—and how he does. Jeffrey Wright has had an amazing career for the last 35 years. He was great in this episode.

[10:39] Olaf: He was good. But there's an episode of Catherine Zeta-Jones and Daniel Craig towards the end of the run of the whole series.

[10:47] J.J.: Yeah, so I mean, yeah, check it out if you want if you want to see some of these young actors that you know, younger, you know, getting opportunities. Great overall.

[10:57] Olaf: Yeah, the eyepatch old Indy. Yeah, that's really rough. Honestly, I wouldn't recommend the show. The only reason why I watched it is because I was now in this headspace of what we were talking about and kind of going, okay, well, yeah, because I remember watching it as a kid, much like the second one, going, well, I haven't seen it in a while. Let me give it a shot.

[11:25] J.J.: Okay, yeah, check. See, we are doing the hard work.

[11:32] Olaf: Yeah, if you want to—if you're a—hey, if you're looking for something to watch and you're falling into the rabbit hole of Indiana Jones, it's on YouTube, the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles.

[11:36] J.J.: Yeah, again, like I said, you and I can both agree, much like anybody who would listen to this and anybody who's ever seen it, Indiana Jones, the fourth one, which by the way, even when we were all still full of hope and excitement, there was a rounding the fact that this movie was actually happening.

[11:52] Olaf: Yeah.

[11:56] J.J.: Even then I was like, terrible title.

[12:00] Olaf: Yeah, no, I know. So, okay, so basically kind of a quick rundown summary of the history of this movie is they finished one of the best trilogies that's out there, and they capped it off in the most perfect way of our heroes and beloved characters riding off directly into the sunset. Like it is literally riding into the sun.

[12:29] J.J.: Yeah, it's so visually poetic and the best way to end an incredible series, and then people got greedy. I mean, that's not fair to say. Yes, people did get greedy, but Steven Spielberg loved making those movies. He loved the team that he worked with because it was pretty much the same team throughout all three films—minor changes here and there, some people passed away and whatnot, but Harrison Ford, it's probably his most beloved role that he's ever done.

[13:04] Olaf: Yeah.

[13:10] J.J.: And he definitely has never wanted to let go of that, and that's okay. I don't have a problem with an older Indiana Jones, but then you have George Lucas, who I'm not gonna say he didn't love the films or the character. I think he did, but by this point in his life, he has moved on to finding ways to ruin beloved franchises such as Star Wars and then turning his eye on Indiana Jones. Like why? It's like I haven't...

[13:38] Olaf: No, it's like just butchered Star Wars, and now he's, you know, and I was like still had some blood.

[13:44] J.J.: Yeah, it's like what next? I come over here in India. I got something to tell you.

[13:49] Olaf: Yeah, look out over the horizon while I have this hammer behind my back.

[13:51] J.J.: Yeah, so I guess a deal had been struck where if another Indiana Jones movie were to happen, it could only happen if all three agreed on the script, and here's where things get—which took a long time. It took many, many years, and yeah, I don't know who was more aggressive about it. Honestly, I think it was George. I think Harrison was just like, yeah, I'd love to do another one. Give me a script, and Steven's busy working on all of his films, so he's just kind of like, what's the idea of this script? No? Okay. So I think George was really the one like trumpeting getting another film off the ground, and a lot of writers came through the door to try to write a good script.

[14:56] J.J.: Indiana Jones and the Sequels of Doom!

[15:21] J.J.: Stephen Spielberg that came out after the fact and he's talking about the process of making another one of these and George comes to him and he says, I'm thinking of doing aliens. What if we do the Area 51 kind of alien scare kind of thing? And Stephen, rightly so, says, I don't want to do aliens. I've done aliens. I've done E.T. I've done Close Encounters. I just did War of the Worlds. Yeah, War of the Worlds is in the back. I've done three alien films. I'm good. So George goes, yeah, all right. Okay, what about this? They're not aliens. They're interdimensional beings. And in the interview, you can see Stephen explaining the story and then his response that he apparently gives to George is just this exhausted kind of response of, yeah, all right.

You win. We'll do it your way. And that's the other problem with this movie, not just the fact that it involved aliens or interdimensional beings. A lot of the movie was made George's way. It was digitally shot. And up to that point, Spielberg had not done digital film. He loved doing traditional. And he wanted to shoot film for this film. And George said, no, no, no, we're going to technology. I just did digital on the Star Wars movies. No, it's going to be great, which is why when you watch, well, I hope you don't, but if you do watch Crystal Skull...

[17:09] J.J.: We can assume that people have seen this movie. If you're going to watch it, that's why it has this weird sheen on it. It's very shiny and plasticky, and none of it looks gritty or realistic or lived in like the previous films. Everything about it was different. It looked different. It felt different. It just wasn't natural. And I'll agree with you in terms of the anticipation for this movie. I was not even nervous. People are like, I'm cautiously excited. I'm nervous. I was kind of like, this is going to be good. He still looks good.

[17:46] J.J.: He did still look good. And he still looked good. Yeah. And like I said earlier, the openings of these movies, they try to set it up for what you're going to be in store for. And I thought the initial beginning of it was fun, you know, when they get into Area 51.

[18:08] Olaf: Okay. So, all right. Okay. Just like you, I had no fear. I was like, Steven Spielberg, Harrison Ford can't go wrong. Sure. George has been doing some questionable things, but surely Steven and Harrison will reign him in. What could go wrong?

[18:30] J.J.: What could go wrong?

[18:45] Olaf: The trailer was great.

[18:46] J.J.: The trailer looked good.

[18:47] Olaf: They cut the trailer really nice.

[18:50] J.J.: Yeah. And we'll get back to it here in a second, but they used scenes that were not, they used takes, I'm sorry, takes of a scene that weren't actually used in the movie. And the takes they used in the trailer were a better take than what they actually, which makes no sense to me. But anyway, we'll get to that in a second because, oh my God, that one sticks with me all the time. I hear it ringing around my head. But anyway, um, the movie opens like all the others with the Paramount logo. It starts off as something else and transitions into the Paramount logo. No, I'm sorry. It starts as the Paramount logo, transitions into a location or whatever. And this one starts with a mound of dirt. And I'm like, okay, I'm still in. By the way, I went opening night and I was dressed in my Indy-

[19:44] J.J.: And I'm sure you weren't the only one.

[19:46] Olaf: I don't know. I did. Because here's why I can't remember because I was so excited when I got there and I'm in my costume and I was so devastated when I left that I was just kind of numb to everything. I think I just remember the sad walk back to my car. But anyway, it transitions from the Paramount logo into this mound of dirt that, okay, whatever. I'm still in because I'm like, this is familiar. I got this. We're off to a great start. And that is the last moment that I felt good about this movie. Because right after that, the mound of dirt opens up and a CGI prairie dog comes up out of this mound. It looks terrible. It looks so fake and so cartoon and CGI. And you're just like, what? They could have gotten a real-

[20:42] J.J.: They could have. And again, I'm not going to be as harsh about that because we could dissect all of the bad things about this movie frame by frame, frame by frame. But I wasn't like, I hadn't torn my ticket up and thrown it in the air at that point. But I was immediately beset with like, uh-oh. I was suddenly uneased.

[21:04] Olaf: I wasn't there yet because we quickly get into Elvis Presley. We get into setting up the time period. We get to Area 51. My first uh-oh, and it wasn't even as early as for you. My first uh-oh was Cate Blanchett. And I love Cate Blanchett. She's fantastic. She's phenomenal. She's amazing. She's beautiful. She's so talented. She's a two-time Oscar winner. Whatever she chose to do in this film didn't work at all.

[21:34] J.J.: And she knows it.

[21:35] Olaf: And that's the thing. It's like, whatever choices she made, I honor those choices and I respect the actor for doing that. They just didn't work. I also didn't like Ray Winstone's character. And I like Ray too.

[21:48] J.J.: No, he was terrible in this as well.

[21:50] Olaf: He's great. But he was a wasted character.

[21:53] J.J.: The double, double, triple engages-

[21:55] Olaf: No.

[21:56] J.J.: Yeah.

[21:57] Olaf: No, he was-

[21:57] J.J.: I loved revisiting the arc in its brief moment. That's the fan service part that they tried to give us at the beginning.

[22:05] Olaf: That's the thing. You just said it. Everything in this movie, everything was wasted.

[22:12] J.J.: Yeah, there's a lot of wasted.

[22:14] Olaf: Everything. Props were wasted. Nostalgia was wasted. Casting was wasted. Everything in this was wasted. We could do a whole hour on this movie of how bad it was.

[22:28] J.J.: I'm sorry. We got a lot of feelings about this. And it was an absolute betrayal. There were just the slightest moments where in a brief short scene, I would see Harrison as Indy and go, that's my guy. I'm not saying that he was bad in it. He certainly stepped outside of his character a little bit from the previous three films. And that's not necessarily a bad thing because now this Indy is older and we do have to tackle that. But there were things that felt a bit cartoonish about his performance. A lot of this movie felt like a cartoon. And not even like a good, fun cartoon, but kind of a silly cartoon that really isn't bringing anything worth watching.

[23:25] Olaf: Yeah. It was tough because, and again, we can gloss over a lot of things as we move into this film, but they got Shia LaBeouf because Shia LaBeouf was a hot ticket at the time.

[23:37] J.J.: He was huge at the time. And at that point, I still liked him.

[23:40] Olaf: Yeah. But again, his character was wasted. It was entirely, which is ironic, is that he's not a one-dimensional actor, but his character was completely one-dimensional all the way down to the, oh, he really likes the Marlon Brando look with the motorcycle. Okay. And this put-upon short temper chip on his shoulder, it got old so fast and it kept going. It never stopped. It was the whole movie. And it's just like, give it a rest. I think at one point, Indy says, give it a rest.

[24:15] J.J.: Yeah. So there's a lot of problems before we even get to the, John Hurt is another amazing actor who's completely wasted as Oxley because he's in this sort of state of-

[24:28] Olaf: And it felt like he was in a different movie.

[24:30] J.J.: This is what I'm saying. Up until the very end, I'm like, so by the time we get to Karen Allen's in this, Marion Ravenwood, I'm already out. I'm out. It's been a hard first hour.

[24:43] Olaf: It's been so hard. By this point, we've already had many scenes that have shown up in the trailer that we've now seen the worst take in the film. Like, perfect example of this, and you can go back and watch it yourself to see what I'm talking about. But in the trailer, there's a part where Shia LaBeouf and Harrison Ford are in like a cemetery type deal, and we don't necessarily see what Indy did that was really cool, but Shia's like, I thought you were a teacher. And he's standing up on a platform and he delivers the line, he says, part time. And he says it in a way in the trailer where you're like, that was so cool.

[25:30] J.J.: In the trailer, which is hilarious.

[25:31] Olaf: It was hilarious and cool at the same time. It's like, there he is, such a badass. That felt like I'm making this up as I go, Indy, as opposed to anything else. And then we get to that same scene in the movie.

[25:49] J.J.: He delivers it down.

[25:50] Olaf: It's part time. And it's almost like it was the 12th take. And he was like, if I have to say part time one more time. It was so bad. And I'm like, why would you use that clip, especially when you used a better take in the trailer? Why not just use that same take? It made no sense to me.

[26:11] J.J.: I agree. That caught my eye and ear immediately when I watched the film. So I'm glad you brought that up as well.

[26:16] Olaf: And it's driven me nuts. I mean, the whole movie upsets me to no end. And when I go back to try to rewatch or try to just think about the movie, because there have been times periodically where I'm like, maybe I'm being overly too harsh. And then I start thinking about it. And I'm like, no, that happened. And that was stupid. And everyone has talked ad nauseum about this, the whole nuking the fridge. He would be dead. That thing, when it landed and the fridge door opened. A body would have just flailed out of the...

[26:54] J.J.: Soup would have just come out of this thing.

[26:57] Olaf: Not to mention that his back would have been broken. And that was at the beginning. And that, for me, I mean, obviously you were already worried, as was I, but then that moment happened. And then I was like, okay, I don't know what this is anymore. I'm not sure what this is. There were so many red flags just in the first, what, 20 minutes?

[27:16] J.J.: Yeah.

[27:16] Olaf: To the point where you lost track. You started forgetting some of the bad that you'd just seen, because so much more was attacking you. It almost felt like you were being attacked.

[27:30] J.J.: Well, and it doesn't stop.

[27:31] Olaf: Well, because then they double down with the swinging in the fort. When Shia LaBeouf's character starts swinging across the vines with the monkeys. And that whole scene, which felt like they were just in a studio shooting the car chase.

[27:45] J.J.: The whole chase in the jungle was absolutely ridiculous. A cartoon CGI. None of it felt real at all. And how everything was coming together in that chase. How these cars were able to stay-

[28:02] Olaf: Parallel.

[28:02] J.J.: Next to each other for so long.

[28:05] Olaf: It's just, the whole movie, especially for someone like me who loves the character so much, is just offensive.

[28:12] J.J.: So by the time we get to the alien reveal at the end, it doesn't matter. By that point, you're so exhausted. You're basically like Steven Spielberg when he was like, how about interdimensional beings? And you're like, okay. At this point, you're like, I give up. You win. I am broken.

[28:34] Olaf: Right. And that was a hard pill to swallow as a fan, as a movie, just a movie watcher in general, because we waited 19 years. I do like the fact that they, from a chronology standpoint, they did do 19 years. They didn't do like 10. The third movie was set in 1938. This one is set in 1957. So at least we get that proper aging of his character. So I did appreciate that. And that's not saying a whole lot. But yeah, it was unfortunate to be left stranded there as a fan with that as the last Indiana Jones until-

[29:13] J.J.: There are tiny, tiny and few nuggets of good in that movie where it could be a quick action shot. It could be a line delivery. It could be this or that. It's small. It's short. And it's so overwhelmed by all of the bad that they get lost in it. And even if you just did focus on that one thing that was good, it loses a lot of its shine because of how awful that film was.

[29:48] Olaf: So let me ask you this. How were you feeling then when it was finally-

[29:53] J.J.: I decided it was set in stone that a fifth one was going to be made, that Harrison Ford was back.

[30:00] Olaf: I like James Mangold. I'm a fan of his films.

[30:04] J.J.: 310 to Yuma, Wolverine, Logan. I mean, he's done a lot of great stuff, and that's just naming three movies off the top of my head.

[30:14] Olaf: So, I was okay with him behind the camera, but what was your...

[30:22] J.J.: So, this was a very complicated process for me, because when Disney bought Lucasfilm, there was a brief discussion about rebooting Indiana Jones and doing a whole new actor in the role and everything.

[30:41] Olaf: Well, like a show. They were going to do a series, too.

[30:43] J.J.: I was on board with it, because Crystal Skull was so awful that I still try to pretend it never happened and just have that trilogy to remember what was so great about the character and everything.

[31:00] Olaf: So, I was fine with the idea of someone else stepping in and starting over. I was okay with it, and then that all fell apart when Harrison was like, I am Indiana Jones.

[31:15] J.J.: Yeah, and that's fine, too. It's one of those things where it's like, okay. Oh, so you still want to make another one?

[31:21] Olaf: I don't think we really knew that.

[31:25] J.J.: So, okay, you're still interested in playing the character. So, I am on board with it. I do recognize that you are very old now. And they don't shy away from it.

[31:37] Olaf: No, they don't. But the thing is, he's always been in such great shape that someone else at that same age wouldn't have been able to do nearly as much as he did. And when you look at how much he did in Dial of Destiny, it is very impressive that someone at his age was able to accomplish what he did.

[31:59] J.J.: James Mangold, I was a little put off with the idea that it wouldn't be directed by Steven Spielberg. I was also kind of surprised because you're telling me, Steven, that you want your last indie film to be Crystal Skull. You don't want another crack at making something better.

[32:16] Olaf: The last Jurassic Park movie he did was Lost World, which is not good, either.

[32:19] J.J.: It's not terrible, either. Talk about doing it for the money. I had a lot of mixed feelings about it.

[32:28] Olaf: Logan is amazing. Three quarters of Wolverine, fantastic.

[32:33] J.J.: That last act is not good. So I was like, okay, we've got somebody who I think could really do a good job with this.

[32:41] Olaf: On a side note, there's an hour-and-a-half documentary called Timeless Heroes, Indiana Jones and Harrison Ford. It came out last year. It covers the whole saga of the movies and him and why he, Indiana Jones and Harrison Ford, are one.

[32:59] J.J.: Going back to your point, it would have been okay to see somebody else. And they talked about Chris Pratt for a while. It would have been a pretty good choice.

[33:06] Olaf: But it's a fantastic documentary, talking to everybody that's still around, including James Mangold, who said to be given an opportunity. He's like, I remember 1981. I was there at the theater watching Raiders. And now to be given this opportunity to be behind the camera for this final installment was like a dream come true.

[33:27] J.J.: As it was for a lot of everybody else that's involved in the picture. And I re-watched Dial of Destiny. And I didn't have a problem with it when I first saw it. Because much like Last Crusade was a palate cleanser and a complete step in the right direction after Temple of Doom, I walked out of Dial of Destiny going, well, I took it for what it was. And it was leaps and bounds better than Crystal Skull.

[33:52] Olaf: So that was already a win.

[33:54] J.J.: The bar had been set so low.

[33:56] Olaf: The bar was buried in the ground.

[33:59] J.J.: No, I understand. It wasn't gonna take much to be better than. But that's the thing, and I'm not alone in this review that most people were just like, it's better than Crystal Skull. It is. But you have to think too, it's not gonna, to me, I wasn't looking at it going, this is gonna reach the heights of Raiders and or even Last Crusade.

[34:20] Olaf: So on the flip side, on the other hand, you're going, well, why are they even doing this? Well, what's the point? Some people are doing it to erase Crystal Skull.

[34:27] J.J.: Sure. But they really were trying to show this character who he's supposed to be around 70. If we're looking at the canon of his, you know, life, he's about 70. And how the type of hero slash character that he was and that was needed in the 30s isn't necessarily thought of anymore in 1969-1970.

[34:50] Olaf: So is he marginalized? Is he kind of kicked to the curb? And for him to take an opportunity to have this one last adventure, but then coming at it as an aging person, knowing that his best years are behind him, they did a really good job of conveying that.

[35:03] J.J.: He did a really good job of conveying that. And like you said, he does a lot of his own stunts in this movie. Like, he's on the horse for the most of it. He's, you know, falling off the train, you know, he's doing a lot of these physical things that, well, he's 80.

[35:19] Olaf: Yeah.

[35:20] J.J.: Yeah, that's 70, like his character is. He's 80. And we forget, too, that in the beginning, which again, I liked the opener of this film. I mean, they set it in the 40s. They de-aged him, which I thought was amazing.

[35:31] Olaf: Yes, his face was a little stiff.

[35:33] J.J.: But I allowed myself to just get lost in this idea of getting to see Indiana Jones at that age again. And he's still physically doing everything. He's still physically running through the train and doing all of these things. It's not somebody else doing it.

[35:47] Olaf: Yeah, so I went into this very cautious. Don't get me wrong, when I saw trailer footage and they show a young Indy, my heart skipped a beat because I'm like, that's...

[35:58] J.J.: Yeah, there he is.

[35:59] Olaf: That's my guy.

[36:00] J.J.: There he is. I never thought I'd see that version of him ever again. And don't get me wrong, Disney especially has made leaps and bounds with de-aging and the technology to do something like that. So an overall opinion of the movie was, I left the theater going, well, it was better than Crystal Skull, and I think I like it.

[36:24] Olaf: But it had the same thing that Phantom Menace had for me. I went and saw Phantom Menace and I left the theater convincing myself that I liked it.

[36:36] J.J.: See, I did not do that with Phantom Menace.

[36:38] Olaf: But then over time of actually like stepping outside of my fandom and really looking at what I'm watching and the choices that were made in the making of and all of that, it loses a lot of positive...

[36:53] J.J.: Well, strictly as a viewer for Phantom Menace for me, there were so many problems with that movie. As a viewer, I walked out of there like, what did I just watch? This is not good.

[37:04] Olaf: But that's essentially what happened with me with this movie. I walked out of it going, I think I liked it. I felt good about it. I mean, it tried to help cleanse the palate from Crystal Skull. But over time, sitting and re-watching and paying attention to what it is I watched, I'm like, oh no.

[37:26] J.J.: It had way more problems than I allowed myself to see at the time that I watched it. And even when I first watched it, I was already identifying issues. Like, as much as I loved seeing a younger Indiana Jones, and yeah, I did try to ignore some of the wonkiness of the face because depending on certain movements and stuff, you're like, whoa, hold on.

[37:51] Olaf: It was still, they didn't change his voice. He was still old, cranky Harrison Ford.

[37:59] J.J.: So anytime he spoke, I got taken out of it because I'm like, you don't sound like a younger Indy. You sound like an 80-year-old Harrison Ford.

[38:09] Olaf: Well, you know what's interesting is I saw Last Crusade again. And the beginnings of that type of growly were already happening there, and he was like in his late 40s at that point.

[38:18] J.J.: Sure, yeah. He's always had that base in his voice, but he's leaned into it over the years, and it's just gotten deeper and deeper and deeper. And there's an interview where he's like, yeah, you know, I tried to make my voice higher and stuff.

[38:31] Olaf: But I'm like, you sounded exactly as you do as an 80-year-old.

[38:36] J.J.: Yeah, I guess for me because he didn't, his dialogue was, if I remember correctly, he was very limited in that opening scene. They were really, he was...

[38:42] Olaf: It wasn't a lot, but every time he spoke, I'm like, old man.

[38:47] J.J.: See, and I wasn't looking, I wasn't pulled out like that. I mean, I can understand people that would be, because to be honest with you, again, I was just a long, I was enjoying that part of the ride, and that it was, I was okay.

[38:59] Olaf: I was giving that like a pass, because there are certain things as you go into the film that were, yeah, I love Phoebe Waller-Bridge. I think she's brilliant. She's a brilliant writer. She's a brilliant actress.

[39:09] J.J.: I did not like her character at all.

[39:11] Olaf: No, no one did.

[39:12] J.J.: And even by the time she has the sort of redemption, it's a bit, such a small redemption arc that she has. It's almost too...

[39:19] Olaf: It's almost out of nowhere.

[39:21] J.J.: It's out of nowhere. It's a little too little too late, and it doesn't seem like a genuine organic redemption. It almost feels like if everything we've seen up to this point with her for the last two hours, she would have left him there when they go back in time. She would have been like, yeah, peace. I'm gonna take Dial and I'm out.

[39:38] Olaf: Like, there was only like one brief moment, maybe, where you think, oh, she really cares about Indiana Jones.

[39:46] J.J.: Yeah, and he's, spoiler, he's dying and she's actually like showing concern now.

[39:53] Olaf: Right, he gets shot.

[39:54] J.J.: It's so unearned.

[39:56] Olaf: Right. She spent 90% of this film on the other side of it, even when she was rescuing him after the scuba diving scene.

[40:05] J.J.: Oh, that scene, so terrible.

[40:07] Olaf: Which, again, the Antonio Banderas character, again, was another wasted character for him because he's great.

[40:14] J.J.: But if I got a call, if I was at his stature and I got a call to be in that film, I'd be like, I don't care what, I'll shine your shoes in Bangalore, you know, in Morocco.

[40:23] Olaf: They should have had Antonio Banderas as his main sidekick through the film, not Phoebe Waller or this kid that they are trying so hard to make a short round.

[40:34] J.J.: But here's the thing, I didn't mind him. He didn't bug me at all. I thought he did a serviceable job.

[40:40] Olaf: He didn't bug me and he did a fine job, but he was pointless.

[40:45] J.J.: He was there to fly a plane that he doesn't know how to fly.

[40:49] Olaf: He shouldn't have known how to fly.

[40:51] J.J.: They tried to set that up in the movie and it was such a crock.

[40:56] Olaf: It was so unbelievable.

[40:57] J.J.: There are so many things that happen in this that, yes, I know that the films have supernatural...

[41:03] Olaf: Yeah, check your brain at the door, suspension of disbelief.

[41:06] J.J.: But what made the first three so great is that they're still based in realism.

[41:12] Olaf: Yeah, they're grounded.

[41:13] J.J.: To where when they do these fantastical things, you can buy it.

[41:17] Olaf: Sure.

[41:17] J.J.: But you don't buy anything in this movie.

[41:20] Olaf: You don't buy that the villain basically got decapitated as a young man on a train and he's got a small scratch on his face when you see him later.

[41:31] J.J.: That guy was dead.

[41:33] Olaf: Yeah, Mads Mikkelsen, though.

[41:34] J.J.: He was so dead.

[41:35] Olaf: And I love Mads Mikkelsen, too.

[41:37] J.J.: This guy was in Casino Royale. He's been around forever. The guy's got a laundry list of a filmography.

[41:42] Olaf: Well, they've got great people in this movie.

[41:44] J.J.: They've got great people.

[41:45] Olaf: But there's a lot of fat in this film that could have been trimmed for sure, no doubt.

[41:56] J.J.: Yeah.

[42:02] Olaf: Overall, seeing Indiana Jones, you know, not even he's in New York now. He's not married. And then finding out why they sort of redeem, I guess, maybe a little bit much care.

[42:13] J.J.: The Shia LaBeouf's character.

[42:15] Olaf: I wouldn't say that they redeem his character.

[42:18] J.J.: They redeem the fact that they basically were going to give the franchise to him.

[42:24] Olaf: Right.

[42:24] J.J.: And instead, they gave him a noble exit by saying he's enlisting.

[42:29] Olaf: Maybe it was to spite his father, maybe because he actually cared.

[42:32] J.J.: But it gave Indiana.

[42:33] Olaf: Well, they killed him.

[42:34] J.J.: I know.

[42:35] Olaf: But I know it gave Indiana Jones character that real human element of loss, which he we never get to see him lose his father.

[42:46] J.J.: We never really get to see him lose anybody, really.

[42:48] Olaf: And any and any of these.

[42:50] J.J.: And they can also be sad about.

[42:52] Olaf: Right.

[42:52] J.J.: And they gloss over it in the fourth one.

[42:54] Olaf: Well, we lost dad and we lost Marcus. And now, you know, time is coming after us.

[42:57] J.J.: And that's it. I got to go.

[42:59] Olaf: Yeah.

[43:00] J.J.: So to see him struggle with that idea throughout the whole movie, because that's basically what he's carrying with him.

[43:05] Olaf: The death of his son.

[43:06] J.J.: Totally fine. His performance dealing with guilt and loss and feeling a little lost and obsolete in this new world.

[43:18] Olaf: That is fine.

[43:19] J.J.: I really didn't have an issue with that other than like at times.

[43:24] Olaf: I'm like, like you said about Temple of Doom was where's the fun?

[43:28] J.J.: I thought there was more fun in this one than in Temple of Doom.

[43:31] Olaf: I think.

[43:32] J.J.: Do you feel like you're having a hard time because you didn't like seeing an older version of a character that you love so much?

[43:39] Olaf: No, I don't have a problem with that.

[43:40] J.J.: I didn't have a problem with him being older in Crystal Skull. I don't have a problem with him being as old as he was in Dial of Destiny.

[43:47] Olaf: It's just how it was executed.

[43:50] J.J.: I don't have a problem with him being old and dealing with these heavy themes, but I have a problem with if you're going to de-age him, de-age him completely.

[43:59] Olaf: Don't make him look younger but sound like an 80-year-old.

[44:02] J.J.: That's the second part of the technology they're working on.

[44:05] Olaf: So I went in very cautious. I went in very open-minded, and I just wanted to go on the adventure again.

[44:14] J.J.: It just wasn't always there, and I got taken out of it a lot because of absurd things or bad choices.

[44:24] Olaf: It wasn't without those things, unfortunately.

[44:27] J.J.: I wanted to be more into this new short round, but he was kind of pointless.

[44:33] Olaf: So he didn't bother me, but I was also like, why is he here?

[44:38] J.J.: Sure.

[44:38] Olaf: Well, because it's her short round.

[44:39] J.J.: It's not his.

[44:40] Olaf: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[44:41] J.J.: But I wanted to like Phoebe's character, and I couldn't, and I didn't, and I don't.

[44:47] Olaf: It was tough.

[44:48] J.J.: Yeah, and I love her.

[44:50] J.J. Gonzalez: She punched up the script. She punched up the latest James Bond script. She's brilliant.

[44:55] Olaf Adsit: I wanted to like the villain, but he died in the beginning of the movie.

[45:02] J.J. Gonzalez: This guy that came back clearly had brain damage from the hit he took because he was making a lot of terrible choices. There were just so many absurd, almost goofy things. Not to the level of Crystal Skull goofy, but still goofy. How is no one seeing this? Why are the bad guys so dumb and incompetent that they're able to get out of these?

[45:26] Olaf Adsit: Now what you're pointing out is things that happen in all of the movies.

[45:32] J.J. Gonzalez: Minus the first one, but even then. It's not like the bad guys are rocket scientists in any of these films, although I do love Bellock. I'm not saying that the bad guys didn't make bad choices in the other films, but it was way more believable. It was way more realistic and natural. It wasn't just a bunch of morons on a boat being stalled while this stupid stuff is happening to get them out of there. There's a difference between villains that make mistakes and the hero gets away, but it feels natural and then just bumbling idiots.

[46:09] Olaf Adsit: Let me shed some light there on that because I think you're talking about the boat where they're stalling. He's not leading that charge. She is. He's not leading it because he's defeated. His friend just got killed. He's old. This has nothing to do with it has to be indie.

[46:30] J.J. Gonzalez: My point is, if it were indie, it probably wouldn't have gone that way. He would have figured out a different way to do it, a much smarter way to do it. Maybe they're showing how she's going to do it. It worked, but it shouldn't have. She's making it up as she goes along.

[46:45] Olaf Adsit: Yeah, but the thugs were so dumb. I'm trying to look back at the heavies in the other movies too, or like in most movies, the heavies usually aren't like, that's why they're the heavies. They're not the brains of the operation. But again, the hero can best the heavy in a smart way and it feel natural that the heavy was duped instead of just, I think, you know, these guys were so dumb. They came from the Super Mario movie. They're so dumb.

[47:23] J.J. Gonzalez: You're talking about the original Super Mario Brothers movie?

[47:26] Olaf Adsit: Yes, the original. It's just, there was no place for that kind of level of dumb idiot. The old villains from the original trilogy, they were smart. They weren't just idiots. They were a little more calculated for sure. They were smarter. They were more calculated. A lot of times they were bested by their own ego.

[47:49] J.J. Gonzalez: Right. Okay. As was this bad guy in this movie, but everybody else, I mean.

[47:54] Olaf Adsit: Everyone around him was a moron. Including Boyd Holbrook. And I like Boyd Holbrook, who was the second in command and the bad guys, and he was wasted as well.

[48:00] J.J. Gonzalez: Yeah. Everybody was wasted in this. There was a slight, I think, and only because it was such a short moment, there was a slight redemption on Marion Ravenwood's character in this movie.

[48:11] Olaf Adsit: Oh yeah. I thought it was a beautiful moment. Because when she shows up in Crystal Skull, I have a moment of, oh thank God, because we've been going through this terrible movie for so long. Finally, someone that we know and love is here to potentially save the last part of the movie. And she starts talking and you're like, who are you? She's older, but I understand. But she is not her character.

[48:37] J.J. Gonzalez: No, she's not. She was more of her character in this last one, in the small moment that she had at the end, than she was in all of the fourth one.

[48:48] Olaf Adsit: Yeah. And I love the moment at the end of this film that they get. She's got the hair like she does in Raiders, in the side ponytail. She was this amazing, strong female character. Feisty, tough, smart, sassy. And the character we got in Crystal Skull was this spacey.

[49:09] J.J. Gonzalez: Yeah. It was a complete extreme. I don't even know how to explain it, because it still confuses me. It didn't work. I was like, you couldn't go back and watch your movie just to refresh yourself on who you were in that movie?

[49:22] Olaf Adsit: Yeah. And the fact that no one else was like, making some interesting choices here, but why don't we try... No, it was just like, I don't know. In my mind, George Lucas directed Crystal Skull, because it's just so terrible. But Dial of Destiny, it's better than Crystal Skull. And I'd never expected it to reach the heights of Raiders or Last Crusade. I never, ever thought that it could do that. I wasn't deluding myself. All I ever wanted, if they were going to do another Indiana Jones movie, whether it was Crystal Skull or Dial of Destiny, all I ever wanted was something that fit with the original, something that you could include and go, this is a full story. This all fits and works together. And I didn't get that. I didn't get that with Dial of Destiny either. It was just something that was better than the last one.

[50:20] J.J. Gonzalez: I think nowadays, because you could look at one through three and say, that's a full story, because of how they end the third one, riding off in the same time.

[50:28] Olaf Adsit: Yeah. No, absolutely.

[50:28] J.J. Gonzalez: But now it's all about how can we keep this train moving with somebody else? And how can we develop and set up a character in whether it's the fourth or the fifth movie to then carry the torch? And I think that secondary idea takes away from what you're saying, which is, can we give the full story? Because the creators would argue, well, we gave Indiana Jones closure. He and Marion ended up back together. He lives, and they're going to be happily ever after. However, we have got this side character. We got Helena. We got the Phoebe Waller-Bridge character. We put some time into it. And so that kind of muddies the water with the full story, because you're left with this.

[51:08] Olaf Adsit: They tried to do that with Shia LaBeouf in the fourth one.

[51:12] J.J. Gonzalez: Yeah. And like Shia LaBeouf, you ended up hating that character by the end of the movie.

[51:18] Olaf Adsit: Right. The unfortunate part.

[51:21] J.J. Gonzalez: You don't want a spinoff, because why would you?

[51:24] Olaf Adsit: I'm not going to watch this person for three movies.

[51:27] J.J. Gonzalez: And I've seen other films where they handled something like that much better, and it felt natural. And that's the thing, is the first three films, they feel fun, full of adventure, but they still are grounded in a realism that works, that makes you buy the more fantastical stuff when it does happen. And when it happens, it still happens sparingly. The whole movie isn't all about this fantastical thing. Sure, it's kind of the MacGuffin, but you don't experience that complete lack of realism until near the end. And when you do, you're already on board.

[52:07] Olaf Adsit: Yeah. When they go back in time, I was like, are they going back in time? Am I going to? And they went back in time, and I was like, all right.

[52:13] J.J. Gonzalez: None of that made sense either. And the kid with the plane, there was just so much about it. It's like, oh God, what are we doing? And I just kind of felt like they hadn't settled on a script yet, but somebody was like, well, we got to make something now, so we'll just continue to throw ideas out.

[52:36] Olaf Adsit: Well, they had talked about, in this documentary, James Mangold had talked about time and how time is getting, we see Indiana Jones' character tracking his time.

[52:41] J.J. Gonzalez: Sure, but you didn't have to take it literally.

[52:47] Olaf Adsit: Well, and then they went that way. And it's tough when you come out with Ark of the Covenant, and then you come out with Holy Grail. And those two, I mean, those are hard things. I mean, those are Mount Rushmore type of ideas of adventures to have. Crystal Skull, eh, okay. But you're right, they had another 15 years to figure out what Indiana Jones is going to do between the fourth and the fifth one.

[53:11] J.J. Gonzalez: Yeah, and they never could come up with something good. And that should have told them then, yeah, we should leave this alone. And the other thing is another, what I think helped make them go in the wrong direction, not just with Destiny, but with Crystal Skull, is suddenly they were trying to create a whole story where the first three films, yeah, there's dates so that you can put them in a chronological order. It's, they're Saturday serials. They're standalone films. But you can get away with that on the first movie. And you got away with it on the second, and you even get away with it on the third.

[53:55] Olaf Adsit: Yeah, but that's because they've created, you know, because what we talked about, the execution of how, especially approaching the third movie, you know, we're going to go back to the Nazis. Okay, we're, oh, let's introduce the father. But now with four and five, they're trying to tie everything together. It's like, why? You didn't need to in the originals. You don't need to now.

[54:14] J.J. Gonzalez: Well, I mean, sure, but you have to, there's got to be in their mind, I'm assuming. It's all nostalgia. Do people want to see just Indiana Jones have another adventure? Or are we going to tie some stakes to it? We're going to give him a son. And then now, okay.

[54:28] Olaf Adsit: People just wanted to see Indy on an adventure. That's all we've ever wanted.

[54:33] J.J. Gonzalez: So let me ask you this before we sign off. If they decided, which they're not going to, but who knows, money talks. If they're like, hey, we're going to revamp Indy with a new guy. What's your take on that?

[54:46] Olaf Adsit: I support the idea because I think Indiana Jones as a character still has lots to say. Go back to the 30s and do more adventures. That's the thing is-

[54:54] J.J. Gonzalez: Well, that's what they tried to do with the show.

[54:56] Olaf Adsit: I love Harrison Ford and I love the original trilogy, but they're all serial adventures and they're fun and exciting. And the character, it feels real. We are emotionally connected to the character because of how real he feels. He's not a mortal. He gets shot. He gets hurt. He gets banged up. He's not a superhero with superpowers.

[55:21] J.J. Gonzalez: Yeah. And we find the emotion that he's going through on the adventure with him. And you can find that emotion in each of the original three films. So you didn't need this added layer to get that emotion by giving him a son or having him married to Marion and blah, blah, blah, blah.

[55:42] Olaf Adsit: I agree. I agree. But I feel like because we were there and we already know he's 70, 80, it was nice to know that he and Marion did get that happy ending.

[55:54] J.J. Gonzalez: With what they had to work with and address because of what came before it, I get it. The problem is with both of these movies, they changed the character to fit the times. None of it felt genuine or earned. I feel it's more earned in the fifth one than in the fourth. And it's a credit to him and how he is portraying the difficulty of loss, not only of his son, but of the marriage as well and of his being relevant, his relevancy.

[56:24] Olaf Adsit: Sure.

[56:24] J.J. Gonzalez: Like when he's talking about this stuff in the lecture, look how this is what it is. Look how exciting and nobody cares. Nobody cares. Nobody has got I love you written on their eyelids like they did. It's a flawed film. It's got a lot of plot holes and issues with it. It has good moments and some moments I wish were better if they had just made some adjustments. It's better than Crystal Skull, but I can't include it with the original three as much as I wanted to. That's the thing. Even with Crystal Skull, I wanted to add these to the collection. I wanted to. And that way I could have this whole collection so I could sit down and watch them all together and just love all of it. And I don't and I can't.

[57:16] Olaf Adsit: Well, there you have it, folks. A glowing endorsement here. Dial of Destiny doesn't make me angry like Crystal Skull, but the flaws definitely disappoint me.

[57:23] J.J. Gonzalez: Well, before we go, I highly recommend if you have Disney Plus out there to check out Timeless Heroes, Indiana Jones and Harrison Ford, because it really is a very well put together documentary. They talk to everybody that's around about Harrison Ford and about the casting process, the screen test of Selleck and Sean Young when they were casting it and how that came to be. And it made me appreciate Five a little bit more.

[57:43] Olaf Adsit: But again, well, yeah, because you and I both watched the fifth one going, please, please be better.

[57:48] J.J. Gonzalez: Sure. I think everybody did. And it was. And it certainly was. It's just at the end of the day, when I look back on Five, then I see a lot of the errors and problems where I can look back on the originals and not find those things and happily rewatch them. But these I'm like, I don't really want to revisit, or maybe I'm just going to watch parts of it.

[58:16] Olaf Adsit: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It'd be easy to watch just parts of Five. And that makes me sad because I wanted a complete story. I could watch just parts of Two. I don't need to watch all of Two. I just did. I don't need to watch all of Two.

[58:32] J.J. Gonzalez: Having said that, we really hope that you don't listen to just parts of this, but that you listen to all of it from beginning to end.

[58:36] Olaf Adsit: Yeah. Click and subscribe. That's right. Assuming that there's a way to do that.

[58:41] J.J. Gonzalez: Yeah. We'll figure it out.

[58:45] Olaf Adsit: All right, man. This was fun.

[58:51] J.J. Gonzalez: Indeed. Yeah. So, that wraps up our Indiana Jones talk. I mean, we can always come back and just single in on one film because we do like to generalize an entire franchise, but I'm ready for the next thing.

[59:04] Olaf Adsit: Yeah, so am I. And on that note, to be continued.

[59:13] J.J. Gonzalez: To be continued.

[59:19] Johnny Clay: Back to the Movie Theater is hosted by J.J. Gonzalez and Olaf Adsit. Produced by me, Johnny Clay, J.J. Gonzalez, and Olaf Adsit. Theme song and incidental music by The Dimes. Follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Back to the Movie Theater. And find us on YouTube at Back to the Movie Theater with J.J. and Olaf.