Ep. 29 - Terminated! Part 2

This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] J.J.: Sitting here, now that I think about it, we failed to mention this when we spoke about the first two Terminator movies.

[0:11] Olaf: You were in a Terminator stunt show as the Terminator.

[0:16] J.J.: Yeah.

[0:17] Olaf: And we sort of buried the lead there the last time we talked about these things.

[0:21] J.J.: Yeah, I played the Terminator for five years in two countries.

[0:27] Olaf: That's awesome.

[0:28] J.J.: Yeah, I started in Orlando at Universal Studios and then ended up working in Japan at Universal Japan doing the show for a couple more years.

[0:41] J.J.: And then came back to Orlando and finished that run.

[0:46] Olaf: And that was right before the show ended.

[0:49] J.J.: Yeah.

[0:50] Olaf: I probably left the show maybe a month or two before they canceled the show.

[0:57] J.J.: Yeah.

[0:58] Olaf: Yeah. It was a cool thing. It was a cool experience because the Terminator was always such a big thing in my life.

[1:05] J.J.: I was such a huge fan of the movies and the character and everything involved in the making of it and just all that stuff.

[1:15] J.J.: I just ate it up.

[1:16] J.J.: So when I got offered the role, it was like, what?

[1:20] J.J.: When I lived in L.A., I auditioned for Universal Hollywood for the John Connor role.

[1:27] J.J.: Clearly, because I could still play a kid from far away.

[1:31] J.J.: I could still play a kid in my mid-20s.

[1:36] J.J.: I did not get the job at all.

[1:39] Olaf: It's kind of surprising.

[1:41] J.J.: You don't have dreams that you're still doing this show?

[1:44] Olaf: It doesn't ever creep into your subconscious at all?

[1:47] J.J.: I mean, maybe, but I don't remember a lot of my dreams.

[1:51] J.J.: I mean, I've seen that show when it was on and it was out, the Universal show.

[1:57] J.J.: It was a cool show. I mean, the whole thing was very well done.

[2:01] J.J.: The show ran in Orlando for like 25, 27, somewhere around there years.

[2:08] Olaf: Yeah.

[2:09] J.J.: Even at the end, I thought it still holds up the effects and everything.

[2:14] Olaf: Was it as good as it was when it started?

[2:17] J.J.: Not quite.

[2:18] J.J.: But the story itself was constructed really well.

[2:22] J.J.: The show, the way it worked was you had a mix of live action and film slash 3D elements all working together.

[2:31] J.J.: And the film part of it used the actual actors from Terminator 2.

[2:37] Olaf: You had everyone come back.

[2:39] J.J.: Eddie Furlong, Linda Hamilton, Arnold, everyone.

[2:43] Olaf: Robert Patrick? Isn't Robert Patrick in it?

[2:45] J.J.: Yeah, even Robert Patrick as the T-1000.

[2:47] J.J.: Everyone was there and Stan Winston was a part of it and James Cameron directed it.

[2:53] J.J.: It's kind of the unofficial Terminator 3.

[2:57] Olaf: Correct. Right.

[2:58] J.J.: Basically.

[2:59] J.J.: And it was really exciting and you got to be that character.

[3:02] J.J.: I had a lot of fun with it, but I took it real seriously because it was one of my hero type characters that I just never thought I'd actually get to be.

[3:12] Olaf: No, I think it's cool.

[3:13] J.J.: Yeah, it was a great time.

[3:14] J.J.: I'd love to be able to talk more about that unofficial Terminator 3, but that is not what we're going to be doing here tonight.

[3:22] J.J.: We're actually going to be talking about the official...

[3:26] Olaf: Now we're going to go from nice dreams to a nightmare.

[3:30] J.J.: But before we do that, we have to get back to the movie theater.

[3:35] Olaf: Like you said, we're going to be going from good dreams to not so good dreams as we continue our Terminator conversation.

[3:59] J.J.: And this is more about how this series and how the franchise took a deep dive in the downward spiral because we're going to talk about Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines.

[4:11] J.J.: And we're also going to take a little dive into Terminator Salvation, which would be the fourth film in the series of Terminator movies.

[4:19] Olaf: Yeah. So Terminator 1 and 2 are huge hits.

[4:23] Olaf: They take the world by storm.

[4:25] Olaf: Everyone knows the Terminator franchise.

[4:27] Olaf: It's just huge. Terminator 2 was just enormous.

[4:31] Olaf: It had a huge box office and a lot of people, including myself, were left wanting more.

[4:37] J.J.: You know, of course, this was just so good.

[4:40] J.J.: You could argue that Terminator 1 and 2 tell a complete story and you could end it there.

[4:45] Olaf: Absolutely.

[4:46] Olaf: That's great.

[4:47] Olaf: That was one of those people.

[4:48] Olaf: If we could look ahead, we'd all say, yeah, that would have been a good idea.

[4:53] J.J.: Unfortunately, that's not what happened.

[4:55] J.J.: And a few years later, after a lot of legal issues and rights disputes, Terminator 3 happens.

[5:06] J.J.: I mean, this was 12 years between the second movie and the third movie.

[5:10] Olaf: So like you say, a lot of people wanting more.

[5:12] J.J.: I was not one of those people.

[5:14] J.J.: I felt after the second Terminator, you got a chance to see both of these movies kind of a lot.

[5:20] J.J.: And when they say they're going to make one, you think, OK, well, at least the tech's caught up a little bit.

[5:27] J.J.: I mean, we're now in the 21st century.

[5:29] J.J.: You know, the technology's gotten better.

[5:31] J.J.: Effects have gotten better.

[5:33] J.J.: Sadly, though, the story did not.

[5:36] Olaf: The studio wanted to make this for a long time.

[5:41] J.J.: But for a long time, Arnold Schwarzenegger refused to do it unless James Cameron was directing.

[5:47] Olaf: And apparently Cameron eventually just told him, just do it and ask for a ton of money.

[5:53] J.J.: And he did it.

[5:54] Olaf: Yeah.

[5:55] J.J.: So apparently he decided to take a percentage of, like, he had this crazy deal, Schwarzenegger, for this third movie in terms of getting paid.

[6:05] J.J.: Well, he went off of his friend James Cameron's suggestion, just walk in, ask for a whole lot.

[6:13] Olaf: Yeah, and see if they say yes.

[6:15] J.J.: Take the money and run, basically.

[6:16] Olaf: Yeah.

[6:17] J.J.: Well, he got, like, percentages of the box office plus, like, DVD and cable TV.

[6:25] J.J.: Like, this deal wasn't unheard of, but it was so, like, convoluted that you would think they're not going to say yes to this.

[6:32] Olaf: And then they did.

[6:33] J.J.: And, like, the budget for the movie was, like, $170 million, and his was $30 million of that $170 million.

[6:41] J.J.: It was just Schwarzenegger's take home, like, built into it, his pay.

[6:45] J.J.: The movie itself, for me, felt like, especially, like, in first glance, one, let's just look at the casting, for starters.

[6:52] J.J.: Obviously, Schwarzenegger was coming back.

[6:54] J.J.: That wasn't a question.

[6:55] J.J.: But then you have to go, okay, Linda Hamilton's not coming back, so now we're going to focus on John Connor.

[7:02] J.J.: Edward Furlong was supposed to come back as John Connor.

[7:06] Olaf: Yeah, originally.

[7:07] J.J.: And then he got dropped.

[7:09] J.J.: Due to a substance abuse problem.

[7:12] Olaf: Yeah, but I don't know if it's confirmed or not, but, I mean, we do know that Edward Furlong has had issues with substance abuse.

[7:20] J.J.: Yeah, and he said in an interview, he goes, I was part of the project, had a very nice deal, but then I guess to celebrate, I went out and overdosed on Coke and kind of destroyed the whole thing.

[7:30] J.J.: But I'm okay.

[7:31] J.J.: I learned my lesson, and I'm back on track.

[7:34] J.J.: And so he didn't come back, and they were thinking, it was between Shane West and Nick Stahl.

[7:40] Olaf: And I like Nick Stahl.

[7:42] J.J.: He had done a couple of things prior.

[7:44] J.J.: Man Without a Face as a kid, kid actor.

[7:47] J.J.: I think he was in Disturbing Behavior with James Marsden and Katie Holmes.

[7:53] J.J.: It was like an Invasion of the Body Snatchers type movie.

[7:55] J.J.: And then he did this, and I actually thought he did a serviceable job as John Connor.

[8:01] J.J.: I really had no issues with him, and I think it's because, is that initially with Edward Furlong, I didn't like him as John Connor.

[8:10] J.J.: And it wasn't until years later and appreciating his performance.

[8:17] J.J.: But I think at the time of Terminator 3, I was like, Nick Stahl, you're doing a really – I'm okay with it.

[8:23] J.J.: You're doing a really good job.

[8:24] J.J.: I want to get this out of the way right now.

[8:27] J.J.: I hate this movie.

[8:30] J.J.: I loathe it.

[8:33] J.J.: I hate it.

[8:34] J.J.: I don't have a problem with Nick Stahl, but I don't like his John Connor.

[8:39] J.J.: There's so little in this movie for me to say okay or I like to.

[8:46] J.J.: The majority of this movie is just awful from nearly start to finish.

[8:52] Olaf: Why?

[8:53] J.J.: Because I'm not disagreeing with you in terms of – I'm not a huge fan of this movie either.

[8:58] J.J.: I'm not sure if I would say that I hate it, but I could take it or leave it.

[9:02] Olaf: Why for you does it elicit such a strong negative reaction?

[9:07] J.J.: It was such a big leap away from where it came from.

[9:12] J.J.: Terminator 1 and 2 might have some humor to it, but it's subtle and it's not forced.

[9:21] J.J.: It's not a joke that's set up and delivered.

[9:25] J.J.: It's more of just finding the funny in tough times kind of way, whereas Terminator 3 leans into humor, makes jokes for the audience.

[9:39] Olaf: It's not making jokes within the movie.

[9:42] J.J.: It's making jokes to the audience.

[9:44] Olaf: Sure.

[9:45] J.J.: Case in point would be when Arnold shows up.

[9:49] J.J.: There's definitely one big thing that I'll give credit to, and that is Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[9:54] J.J.: A, he came in.

[9:56] J.J.: He got paid a ton of money to do it, and he didn't have to work hard for it, but he did.

[10:03] J.J.: He did.

[10:04] J.J.: And I will give Arnold full credit for his performance and the work that he put in because at the time, he was not in shape.

[10:14] J.J.: Prior, prior.

[10:15] J.J.: You can look up pictures of him.

[10:17] J.J.: He's way out of shape, especially for Arnold and what everyone thinks of.

[10:22] Olaf: Right.

[10:23] J.J.: And when he took this role, he worked out every day for like three hours a day.

[10:29] J.J.: Six months.

[10:30] Olaf: Yeah, for six months.

[10:31] J.J.: And he got back into exactly the same shape that he did in the second one.

[10:36] Olaf: Yeah, he was in incredible shape.

[10:38] J.J.: So when he first shows up and like the Terminator does in there, no clothes, he looks fantastic.

[10:45] Olaf: Yeah, agreed.

[10:46] J.J.: For 56, 56, 56 at the time.

[10:49] Olaf: Yeah.

[10:50] J.J.: And he still has a really solid idea of the character and still plays it great.

[10:57] J.J.: And if they had made a good Terminator 3, you wouldn't have noticed the big difference between 2 and 3.

[11:04] J.J.: But then everything else about this movie is just wrong.

[11:07] J.J.: Everything about it is wrong.

[11:09] J.J.: The tone of it's wrong.

[11:11] J.J.: The tempo, the pacing of it is wrong.

[11:14] J.J.: And then everything is forced.

[11:19] Olaf: I need everybody to know that what you don't see is he is really it's almost like, hey, man, we want to talk about the downfall of this series.

[11:26] J.J.: We're going to have to talk about Terminator 3.

[11:29] Olaf: And his face is just like is very painful right now for him to like walk down this road.

[11:37] J.J.: It's a lot like going to see Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull.

[11:42] Olaf: Oof.

[11:43] J.J.: Okay.

[11:44] J.J.: I go in with high hopes.

[11:46] J.J.: I go in knowing in my bones that this is going to be good and I'm going to love it.

[11:51] J.J.: And being completely robbed and abused by what I just saw.

[11:56] J.J.: So this movie starts out and it's kind of slow and it's still got the futuristic battle scenes and it's got Nick Stahl now being John Connor and whatever.

[12:07] J.J.: And that's fine.

[12:09] Olaf: Sure.

[12:10] J.J.: It's just exposition.

[12:11] J.J.: You're still there.

[12:12] J.J.: We haven't lost you yet.

[12:14] J.J.: Yeah.

[12:15] J.J.: Nothing's deviated yet.

[12:17] J.J.: It's just, okay, you're not Eddie Furlong, so I can accept that it's been recast, whatever.

[12:23] J.J.: And so far, nothing's crazy.

[12:26] J.J.: And I can even buy like his like Wanderlust type character.

[12:31] Olaf: Well, he's off the grid.

[12:33] J.J.: He's off the grid, moving around, doing odd jobs.

[12:36] J.J.: And at the time, we don't know.

[12:38] J.J.: Later we find out what happens to Sarah.

[12:40] J.J.: But I think it's one of these things where there's no judgment day, so like what's his purpose?

[12:45] Olaf: Like why is he there sort of thing.

[12:47] J.J.: Sort of lost.

[12:48] J.J.: He's lost.

[12:49] J.J.: He's haunted by his past and his future and this is him.

[12:53] J.J.: And so I can kind of buy that.

[12:55] Olaf: I can get on board with that.

[12:56] J.J.: Sure.

[12:57] J.J.: And then I forget.

[13:01] J.J.: Arnold shows up first because he shows up first because he and he shows up the space bubble. He's there. He looks fantastic. He goes into a bar and right up to him walking into the bar. I'm still on board. I'm like, okay great. We're off to a good start, right? Then it turns out he walks into like a sort of bachelorette girls night at this honky-tonk bar. At this bar, yeah, even that I'm okay with. I'm like that happens. Yeah, and he's just muscle and naked whatever, but then there's a male stripper on the floor on the stage and he's dressed in a biker outfit that just apparently perfectly matches Arnold's size. Somebody has really baggy on the dancer. Yeah, that's where this movie loses. Sure, this is what it goes back to your point of it's the humor is not coming from a genuine place, right?

It's like we're coming from a staged, right? We're gonna stick this guy on stage and wearing an outfit that's gonna be perfect for Arnold but clearly not perfect for this guy. Guess what everybody? Here's the joke. And then you're right, it kind of does those moments are forced onto the audience. He's like give me your clothes and the dancer shoves his hand out and says talk to the hand. Yeah, very early 2000s. I'm telling you even then that was dated.

[14:40] Olaf: Not possibly because and then what Arnold actually talks inside his like to talk into the hand, yeah, and it's like the Terminator that we that everyone knows from Terminator 2 would not have done that. He would have grabbed the hand and crushed it. He would have broken because it didn't kill him, right? Because you watch how he interacts with those bikers when he gets clothes in Terminator 2. He didn't kill anybody, but he messed everybody up. Yeah, he threw people around. He threw people around the bar, no doubt. And yeah, I mean he did ask politely. He was like give me your clothes, your boots, and your motorcycle. And the guy's like you forgot to say please and then they attacked him and he just defended himself and got the stuff, didn't kill anybody, right? That's and then his John Connor is like don't kill anybody. Right, and you we get to this now and now all of a sudden the Terminator has etiquette, but he's also ignorant too.

[15:41] J.J.: Like very childlike interaction. Yeah, and so he grabs the hand and he's like give me your clothes into the hand and it's like and that's where he brings it back later. Yeah, I know lots where we lost Olaf. Well, look, I mean that in itself, you could this whole thing. I mean we would be here all night going. I know but we have to talk about the atrocities and I'm talking about him right now. You asked.

[16:10] Olaf: Question is a very little now he walks out of the bar and he's in his biker outfit.

[16:21] J.J.: I'm telling you, this was the worst of all the issues. Oh, I know this movie. I know exactly what you're gonna say of all the issues. This is the biggest issue because not only is it a setup joke that's saying hey audience, we're doing this joke for you, but it's Arnold looks right down the camera lens. Yeah, right? This is going to be a joke and you know, you're supposed to laugh. Yeah, and he pulls out sunglasses just like Terminator 2 and he puts them on but they're pink star-shaped glasses and he looks around and then he takes them off and crushes them and conveniently finds like the right appropriate pair in a truck that he gets in the truck and boom, there they are glasses he's gonna wear for the movie and it's just like that was such a slap in the face and that, yeah, and it's not a point. I'm angry at that point. I'm watching this movie for the first time, right?

[17:27] Olaf: Well because at that point the tone of the film is gonna be fighting itself for you and for a lot of people to wash away with that because if the movie at past that had been amazing, it would be like man, this movie was really good minus that part in the biker bar, but it wasn't. It was like well the biker bar kind of set up the tone of what we were gonna be and not to say that the tone of the movie from a humorous standpoint was like that the whole movie, it was just the quality of the script, the quality of the storytelling was right about there. I wouldn't say if I know and I'm gonna not not know I'm not here to defend this movie at all, but I know that you just basically came out and said you all caps hated it and that's well, I had a fight because we started talking about it.

We've covered other movies and it's like and we're gonna enjoy this one movie. We'll get to it. No, no, no, I we need to know from the get-go. Yeah, I am fully against this movie and I'm again, I'm not over here saying that there's a shining light in this movie. If there were to be a shining light, I would maybe say that it was Claire Danes. She plays Katherine Brewster who we find out through one conversation that she went to middle school with John and then John disappeared and it was like the whole Judgment Day stuff.

[19:01] J.J.: Which leads me to my issue from the second movie where he was supposed to be 10 years old in Terminator 2. They easily correct that in a VO that Nick Stahl says is John Connor at the beginning when he says that well when I was 13, they sent back another Terminator to try and take me out and you know, I was saving us. I was like how easy was that everybody if they could have just done that in the second one you wouldn't have had to do that, but that's how it's done. And that's why J.J. hates.

[19:23] Olaf: No, but now we're on the Terminator 3.

[19:26] J.J.: The this movie is a mess. This movie has no real direction. You find out by six minutes in that James Cameron is not in charge of this. He consulted on this film though. That's the crazy part. Like there was a moment there where he was slightly involved and I'm not saying he was involved at any later stages of this film, but yeah, he's merely getting paid to say well I would do this and then the studio, the producers, and the director are like, well, we can use it or we can do our own. Oh, we've got this thing over here. Yeah, and they were like we're gonna do our own thing.

[20:13] Olaf: Oh, this is to me. This is of the film where we start and again at the time, we don't know that they're gonna try and do multiple things. It's not until now where we go. This is the third of six. You can see the attempt of them trying to make this series last through the course of time because as we know in the first two movies there is a time. 2029 this all happens like Judgment Day is on this day and it starts this war and this is the future date that I'm from that Kyle Reese says I'm from this year whatever and so as we get closer now we're in the 21st century in real life and the studios want to make this relevant still. This is the movie where we start to see like you say there's no direction.

There's like desperation and how can we get this thing to keep going? I don't even know if they were thinking that far ahead. They might not and I feel like they were like we need to cash in because of the rights issues that were going on. We have to make a movie and this is what we end up with and since we're focused on just making a movie, there's no one there to say well how should we make the movie and what is the movie about?

[21:24] J.J.: So well, they retread on some stuff. They add some well now they say into the history of the franchise which you know, take it or leave it. Which doesn't even matter. Claire Danes and Nick Stahl are supposed to I guess be a couple at some point. Well, they lead they have no chemistry. They form the team lead the resistance and that whole thing. Claire Danes wasn't even the original choice like Sophia Bush, a 19-year-old Sophia Bush was like cast as this as Katherine Brewster. They shot like a week with her and the director was like she's too young. Like she's great but she's 19. Everybody's 22, 23 and that age gap is enough to make a difference on camera. It just wasn't working. So they had to let her go and Claire Danes was the choice and again, I like Claire Danes.

I think she's phenomenal all across the board and the majority of the things I've seen in her in sure from my so-called life all the way to Homeland and beyond. I like I didn't mind her in this movie considering that she was in the movie she was being asked to do. She came in and did what she was asked to do. Her performance is fine. Nick Stahl is fine as Nick Stahl.

[23:43] J.J.: Yeah, there's not a lot of meat on the bone here. Yeah, I didn't buy him as John Connor. I didn't buy his relationship with Claire Danes.

[23:53] Olaf: Well, I mean, I don't think you're really supposed to. It's not like throughout the course of the movie you're supposed to see some sort of relationship start to form. They're really well, you're expected to because that's how they Terminator tells you and places it all out and he's telling them, he's telling us that they're going to come together and it's like, okay, well, I don't see it. You don't see it develop, you know over the movie.

[24:31] J.J.: No, you know, yeah, they never really have moments to do that.

[24:34] Olaf: Yeah, so if you had taken out Arnold explaining all this to them, then it wouldn't have been an issue. It would have just been two people.

[24:39] J.J.: Right. So let me ask you this in the future. What was your take on them making that the evil Terminator, the bad Terminator a Terminatrix, a female? What was your or did it matter at this point? Because we already knew that going into the movie that is gonna be a female.

[24:52] Olaf: Uh, what is it? Kristana? Kristana Loken. Yeah. Yeah, Kristana Loken. She's fine. She went to the school of T-1000 and was like, okay, I see what came before and I'm going to not mimic it, but I'm going to try to honor what came before. Sure, the and I don't have a problem with her. I had a problem with the director being like, well, we're gonna do this gag with make her boobs inflate.

[25:24] J.J.: Yeah.

[25:24] Olaf: Yeah, cop and and I also had a big problem with the story itself saying that she's this hybrid of a T-800 and a T-1000. She has an endoskeleton, but she also has liquid metal and I'm like, well, that's dumb. This is what I don't understand the assembly line of Terminators that are coming out all look like Arnold they established that you know they all like but I guess the machines have other like models after because the as I understand it each model is different. So the model T-800 model 101, that's Arnold. So all the model 101 he's at 850 in this one. He's not even these.

[25:57] J.J.: Oh, yeah, he's an 850, you know, so like do the machines have their own like system? Why is he an 850?

[26:03] Olaf: I have no idea. He because he does.

[26:05] J.J.: Yeah, he's an 850. I know because somebody is probably like well, he's like 53. So.

[26:10] Olaf: Well, cuz it's not like what he's doing in this movie is any different than what he did in the second move.

[26:15] J.J.: Oh, yeah, so for me, he's just a T-800 model 101 and if you want to say he's an 850 fine, he's an 850 but like if you look at the original Terminator, they had some Terminators with the flesh and human looking friends that were not Arnold, right? It's just the one that sent back except in this movie in the future.

[26:01] J.J.: John Connor gets killed by a machine that looks like Arnold as sort of a deception, and so that's why Catherine Brewster sends back this Terminator into the present day, and that's why this Terminator is listening to Catherine Brewster, not to John. And Catherine's like, what are you talking about? And so, like, she's the one who ends up sending Arnold back to save John. I don't have a problem with that. What I had a problem with was like, that was just their excuse to do another mimic of Terminator 2 and just have this, oh, now I am in charge of a Terminator. Let's play around with that kind of deal, like what John discovered. Also, it's like the evil Terminator, the Terminatrix, the TX isn't there just because they don't know where John is, so we need to eliminate John's team, Catherine Brewster, all of his soldiers.

I don't have a problem with that either. I like that. That's fine. It's just they executed a lot of things so poorly, and like I said, having the villain be T1 liquid metal and have an endoskeleton just made no sense because that's not really giving them an advantage other than now she can form complex machines that the T1000 couldn't do. The T1000 could only do like sharp objects and stabbing weapons, and this one can form those things, but I didn't feel that it was a real progression for Skynet in the future. It just seemed nonsensical to me. It was like the T1000 was an amazing infiltration unit that had very little weaknesses, and you didn't build on that. You actually like took it backwards. And that's the issue, I think.

[27:52] Olaf: Gave it more weaknesses. Like one of the issues I think, like we've said, because I feel like sometimes because of Cameron, you and I have gotten into these comparison conversations of the Terminator series and the Alien series. These are two series that were the first two movies. Tell a complete story. You don't need the third one, and then the studio's like, we're going to make a third one. We're going to make an Alien 3. We're going to make a Terminator 3, and they forget what made the first two so great, but they're also maybe trying to not, like how do you tell a compelling story on number three when you knocked it out of the park the first two times in different ways? Because Alien 1 and Aliens and Terminator and Terminator 2 knocked it out of the park in their own way. You get to this third one, and you're like, ugh.

[28:42] J.J.: I think you could have done it if you'd put time and effort into the creative process, into the writing, but that's not what happened. This movie was forced. Which is crazy because it was like 12. I mean, this is 12 years from the first one to, I mean, from the second one to the third one. It took 12 years. It's not like we need to kick this thing out like right away. Obviously, they wanted, I think originally they wanted to make this one, and then a fourth one, which would have been Salvation, you know, kind of close together, and then this one, the studio went belly up, and then the fourth one, it took a while for the fourth one to get done.

[29:27] Olaf: What did you think of their treatment of Sarah Connor?

[29:32] J.J.: Okay, because I was going to ask you that question too. I thought it was a bit lazy. I thought it was a bit, they took like the easy way out. Yeah, Linda Hamilton didn't want to do it. I think originally she was going to be in the movie, in the script, and then her character dies halfway through or something, and she was like, I'm good. I don't need that. She was not happy with the script. And so they just, they took one line of dialogue, and it's like, she died of leukemia. You're like, oh, so that's what took her out? For me, it felt very like a slap in the face for her, because we just spent the first two movies, like she, yes, John was the Pokemon, but she is the driving force in both of these movies in different ways in the first two movies.

And for her, they didn't need to unceremoniously like kill her off that way. They could have given her a much better send off, or they could have just said that she was somewhere else. I was not a huge fan of that, and then they go to her where she's buried, and instead of her body, it's like an arsenal of weapons that are in her casket, which is, I guess, sort of fitting because she was always preparing for the end of the world.

[30:51] Olaf: If you're going to do all this lazy work, the casket full of guns at least felt to her character.

[30:58] J.J.: Yes, but it also just, at that point for me, like, yes, the bar at the beginning, you're like, this is going to be rough, and then you get to that point where they get to the cemetery to get the weapons, which I guess they knew about, like he knew about, Arnold knew about the Terminator. He said, we got to go here, and I'm like, how? I don't really know why he knows that, because if he's sent back by Claire Danes' character, how would she have known? Unless, yeah, because how would John know? Because John didn't know, and there was also this excuse to bring back the psychologist, psychiatrist from the first two movies in a pointless cameo.

[31:46] Olaf: Pointless, absolutely pointless. I thought that the treatment of Sarah Connor was disrespectful, lazy. My thing is, if you're going to put a ton of money into this, and apparently this was like the most expensive R-rated movie of all time. And considered the most expensive independent movie, because I think originally it wasn't supposed to be this outlandish budget. It just turned into that, because Arnold and all of this other stuff, because. Yeah, if one of your main actors is like, no, because, and they're saying it's because of the script, maybe you should take time and work on the script.

[32:21] J.J.: Right. I agree. I agree with that completely. Don't just be like, okay, well, then we'll write you out. You died of leukemia. One line. We're going to give you one line, and we're going to move on, and that's it. And there's no time to mourn her or anything. Well, you assume, yeah, as a viewer, no. No, they don't give you any of that. This movie is, it's just not good. It's poorly put together. I don't want to take anything away from the performances of most of the cast, but the movie doesn't hold up. It doesn't age well. And would later be seen by Cameron and Schwarzenegger as a miss.

[33:01] Olaf: Oh, it was a huge miss. I mean, later on, Schwarzenegger regretted doing it. He was like, apologize to Cameron. I shouldn't have done this.

[33:11] J.J.: Well, Cameron told him, take the money and run. And so he did. And so I could see where they would just have regrets on the creative side of things. Like we should have, if this was going to happen, we should have done it the right way. So I could see them regretting that. But other than that, I don't think they care all that much. The movie feels flat. It feels tired, and it feels forced. And that's hard because the second one was vastly different than the first in so many amazing ways that that's what you're really living up to is the second one. And it's hard. Like, so, you know, why do it? Why do it? But, you know, they did it. You know, obviously, we not only get introduced to Catherine, but coincidentally, Catherine's dad is also somewhat involved directly, indirectly, not in a negative way, like not in an evil bad guy way, but just sort of like, you know, he as a general in the military, you know, is sort of responsible for the it only makes sense in the script, because they needed to they need they wanted the John and Catherine and Arnold to go to where Skynet is. And they're like, well, how can we do that? Oh, well, we'll make her dad important, the person in charge of the person at the point of contact, which is also lazy and boring.

[34:40] Olaf: Oh, agree, because even to your point to what you just said, and now that they're here at the final act, we need to get them to the final destination. And so we're going to have the dad before he dies, tell them, oh, hey, you need to get to this final spot, because this is how you can stop it. But just kidding. The final stop is really a bunker to make sure that you guys stay alive, because you couldn't have stopped it anyway. And I think that was the biggest hang up with this movie from the fan standpoint, is because it sort of negates what we're told in the first two movies, which is fate is what we make, you know, we can change these things. And through this whole movie, it's it doesn't matter what you do, it's going to happen anyway.

[35:27] J.J.: Sorry, I've heard a lot of people praise the movie for its ending. And oh, really, when it happened, I wasn't like, Oh, wow. I was just like, Oh, okay. Yeah, I found it underwhelming.

[35:39] Olaf: No, and I mean, it did well, obviously, because it was it did well, because everyone was expecting right to T two more Terminator two, and that's not what they got. But like you've said, it has not aged well at all. And I would completely agree with that. There's got to be a coincidence in the fact that as of right now, as of this recording, you can't get it anywhere, right? You can't stream it anywhere.

[36:04] J.J.: It's true. It's not you can watch some clips from the movie on YouTube. But I wouldn't be surprised that when people listen to this, you still won't be able to find it. That's just Yeah, that's just me. But I'll tell you, if you're curious about this movie, and what we've been talking about, the only thing you need to watch is Arnold's arrival clip. And you can get it out, you find it on YouTube, it shows his whole arrival, he goes into the bar, talks to the hand, and then finishes with him putting on those sunglasses. And that's all that's all you need to see. That's all you need to know that this movie is garbage.

[36:45] Olaf: That's not a bad assessment. And, you know, we had to wait six years for the next one, which was Terminator Salvation, which came out in 2009, which still falls in the same timeline as these other three movies. You and I actually saw this movie together in the theater when it came out.

[37:04] J.J.: Yeah, right. I'm just gonna say this, like you said this about the other one. I liked this movie. I did not have a problem with this movie. I didn't hate it because it was trying to do something different than what we had already seen. I mean, this takes place in 2018, where the machines have already are on the verge of sort of taking over or trying to and there's a resistance happening. My feeling about Terminator Salvation is I don't I certainly don't hate it. Like, I hate Terminator 3. In fact, I don't hate any of the other Terminator things. I hate Terminator 3. Salvation, I thought, had a really good idea and they brought up some good moments and good thoughts, but it just didn't land quite right. It fell short on a lot of things, but it did do some things well.

[38:15] Olaf: I agree. So, overall, I can still watch this movie and enjoy most of it. There are things in it that do bother me, but it's nothing like Terminator 3.

[38:22] J.J.: No, I agree. Like you said, I think it's trying to do some things different while still staying within the confines of the story and where we're trying to go. But this is also the first time where we see John Connor as an adult for the whole film. Christian Bale, I thought, was a great choice to play John Connor, even though he was originally asked to play the other character, Marcus Wright, the one that Sam Worthington plays. But he wanted to play John Connor, which I thought was a great choice. I thought Bryce Dallas Howard was also a nice choice as Catherine Brewster. She's fine. She's serviceable. Pregnant in real life. So, they worked that into the movie, which I thought was a nice little touch. I also like the fact that I don't have an issue with any of the characters.

[39:02] J.J.: I didn't have an issue with the casting as much as I had issues with, like, and I love Anton Yelchin as, I thought, as an actor. Lost him way too early in his life. The late, great Anton Yelchin. Lost him way too early. I thought he did a good job as Kyle Reese.

[39:17] Olaf: He did a fantastic job as Kyle Reese. Like, I totally bought him as a young Kyle Reese. I thought there were just certain things that he was tasked to do that I was just kind of like, okay, I mean, I know, I understand that we're trying to also bring this character in. It goes back to that thing where you say, I don't need to know how he got this. I don't need to know how he learned to do this. And there were certain elements in this movie where, like, the thing with the gun that he does in the first movie where he's got it on a rope or a string. They're like, hey, this is the guy who taught him how to do that. And I'm like, okay, well, that's cool. I suppose. Little things like that. Yeah. Something so trivial like that. I'm like, okay, whatever. I didn't need that. Right. We don't need to know that.

[40:07] J.J.: When prequels do that, where they try to answer questions nobody asks.

[40:12] Olaf: They do. Because that's what they're there for. I mean, why would you have a prequel unless you want to an origin story?

[40:29] J.J.: There were certain things about the movie. Again, this is one of those things where it's like, okay, well, now we got to push Judgment Day a little bit further now, because we need to keep telling this story. And how can we keep doing that if they keep winning in the end? Well, you know.

[40:45] J.J.: Here's what I like about Salvation. I'm going to come at it from this angle. I'm going to first talk about what I like about it. Then we can talk about what we like about it. And then we can talk about what we don't like about it.

[40:58] Olaf: Okay, go.

[40:58] J.J.: I really liked the idea of finally, we're just shooting a movie that happens in the future.

[41:07] Olaf: Yes.

[41:08] J.J.: We're telling a whole movie that's not time travel. We didn't go in the past. This is all in the apocalyptic future of the Terminator universe. And that's it. Awesome. We got to do that. I like that they stayed true to the designs of Terminators and the ships and the tanks and the guns and all that stuff. I liked some of the Easter eggs. There's a scene where it's kind of unnecessary, but there's a scene where John Connor needs to get somewhere fast, sort of. He's like, I'm going to get this Terminator motorcycle. And so he turns on a boombox that's playing Guns and Roses, which that song was featured in Terminator 2.

[41:56] Olaf: Right. Yeah. There was things like that I enjoy. I agree with you about the fact that we're going to just stay and tell this story. We're already in the thick of it. John's not even the leader of the Resistance. He's just a soldier trying to-

[42:12] J.J.: Yeah. It's early on in his career. He's more of a myth to a lot of people.

[42:20] Olaf: Right. Right.

[42:21] J.J.: There's stories of this guy who knows everything about the future. And that's what I loved about, because Christian Bale is just amazing anyway, and his approach to this character and to the stakes that are in front of him and what he knows is going to happen, but he's not in a position where people of authority are listening to him. And so there is a groundedness to his performance as John Connor that I really, really enjoyed, because it's sort of in a roundabout sort of way, elevates everybody else.

[42:55] Olaf: I wish that Christian Bale and Anton had had more scenes together. They only had like one scene together at the very end with John and Kyle Reese. Other than that, it's Kyle Reese hanging out with Sam Worthington's character, Marcus, who I like Sam Worthington. I just didn't really like the Marcus character that much. I liked the idea of what they were trying to do. It didn't really land. It didn't really land like I wanted it to.

[43:19] J.J.: Here's something that's bothered me about the movie, and re-watching it again recently, it still did, is we've had three movies come out about the Terminator that not just describe in detail the future and the apocalypse and the world that they live in, but vivid scenes of what it looks like, and they did not get that right at all. According to Salvation, it's just a desert. It's a barren wasteland. We're in the desert. It's very Mad Max.

[43:58] Olaf: Yeah, but it shouldn't be, because if you look at the timeline of the future wars and the scenes that they show and the amount of skulls and bones and blown out wreckage and all that stuff, a lot of that should already be there.

[44:13] J.J.: Well, hold on. Now, we're talking about Salvation that's set in 2018. The stuff that we see vividly takes place in 2029, right? That's still 11 years. There's still a lot of stuff that has to happen.

[44:26] Olaf: No. I'm sorry.

[44:32] J.J.: But we know how time passes, and in 10 years, there's not going to be that much that's different. You're not going to just suddenly drop tons and tons of bones and wreckage on the ground, so then it looks like what it's supposed to in 2029 at 2018. No. A lot of that should already be there as a foundation. It's just a desert.

[44:55] Olaf: That's one of the things that, to me, I didn't really clock that. It wasn't something that bothered me.

[45:02] J.J.: Because the movie's telling you, hey, we're in the future. We're in that time that you have seen in the previous films as flashbacks or flash forwards.

[45:12] Olaf: But we're not. We're not there yet. We're still not there yet.

[45:15] J.J.: You're close enough. There's plenty of human-on-robot battle action, and there's no skulls. There's hardly any wreckage anywhere. It's just desert and open roads.

[45:31] Olaf: Maybe this movie, if it had done well, would have led us there.

[45:37] J.J.: I'm just saying it doesn't match what came before it. If it had done a better job of that, then I wouldn't have had this complaint.

[45:45] J.J.: One of the things I did like about it were the old recordings of Sarah Connor. They got Linda Hamilton back to voice a couple of lines. Uncredited, of course, but it's not only the tape-recorded message that she leaves from at the end of the first movie, but it's some additional dialogue that John's listening to on a tape recorder, which I thought was really cool, especially since they disrespected her so much in the third one.

[46:13] Olaf: For her to even be willing to do that, Linda Hamilton would be like, yeah, I'll do that. I'm sure she got a good amount of money.

[46:19] J.J.: I'm sure, but it was cool when that scene comes up. You get to see that moment. I'm like, that was one of the things I was like, yeah, I like that in the midst of all the things. I love that Christian Bale and Anton Yelchin were so true to the characters that they were playing. I could see an Eddie Furlong growing up into Christian Bale, and I could see an Anton Yelchin growing up into Michael Biehn.

[46:51] Olaf: No, absolutely. The casting was fantastic.

[46:53] J.J.: Later films don't get that right at all.

[46:57] Olaf: No, and that's the irony is that we get to see so much of John and Kyle together in later films done badly that I would have loved to have seen more of Christian and Anton, John and Kyle, because we get that one scene in the factory where he saves him and then that's it. And you're like, well, thanks. I would have loved to a lot more of that.

[47:22] J.J.: I do want to talk about Sam Worthington's character. I like Sam Worthington, too. He's done good movies.

[47:26] Olaf: He's unfortunately done some generic bland movies.

[47:31] J.J.: Not his fault. I think he got maybe some bad direction from his agents on some stuff, and they were just trying to hit as much as they could while his star power was hot. So he was like everywhere.

[47:49] Olaf: Everywhere for like five years, four or five years.

[47:53] J.J.: And some of it worked and some of it didn't. And it really wasn't his fault. I don't think he's a bad actor. And I don't think he was a bad actor in this movie or with this character. But did I like that he was a Terminator and just this other random infiltration unit that it was never made again? It was just this one model.

[48:17] Olaf: It's a one off. Yeah.

[48:18] J.J.: This one off. Did I like that? No, no, not really.

[48:23] Olaf: Well, and they also were trying to make him the father figure to Kyle Reese. And that's what John should have been. Like, this is my point. Like I'm like Christian Bale was offered Marcus Wright. And I would at least we would have gotten to see that.

[48:35] J.J.: Well, I just think a lot of what Sam Worthington's character was doing, it should have been John Connor.

[48:42] Olaf: Agreed.

[48:42] J.J.: John should have found him in the rubble of L.A. And they should have all had that interaction. He fixes the car because he was around when cars were working. Right.

[48:53] Olaf: And all that stuff. So having them on a road trip together like that would have been so much better instead of him like having these petty fights with Central Command.

[49:06] J.J.: Right. Right. I mean, and having having him get I don't know. He's he opens like he does. He goes into that bunker and finds the humans and the experiments and everything. And then when he gets up and he gets attacked by the Terminator model and the helicopter crashes, that could have been him. Now I have to get back to Central.

[49:31] Olaf: Yeah, that could have been John.

[49:32] J.J.: About this. And on his way, his journey back, he finds Kyle and.

[49:38] J.J.: It's such an interesting thing because we both sat here and said we like this movie. Obviously, we don't. I do. I like this movie. But there are certain things where John Christian Bale's John Connor feels very sick. He's two different movies like they're doing two different functions. He's almost like a secondary character to the Kyle and Marcus story where we're supposed to because we already know who John is and where he's coming from. They're wanting us to go along this ride with Marcus Wright to figure out who he is and to get some sort of redemption.

[50:09] Olaf: Yeah. And you didn't need it at all.

[50:11] J.J.: No. And it wasn't bad. It just.

[50:14] Olaf: No, it didn't. It was just unnecessary.

[50:16] J.J.: Right. It didn't make for a strong story because in the end, you care about John and Kyle. I mean, Marcus, who's Marcus? So if you just eliminated the Marcus character completely because you that's the thing is, I think the director was also like, well, we have to have a Terminator through the whole movie because that's what the movies have been before. But it's like you don't because now you are in the time of the Terminators everywhere. Right. They're all over the place. You don't need to go on a journey with one of them. Right. No, the journey should be with John then finding his would be father, Kyle, and being a father figure to him. Right. And them bonding before you get to the end and eventually sending him. But here's the thing. They make the Marcus Wright character important because at the end, he's the one who saves John Connor by giving him his heart or something. This isn't like John gets stabbed in the heart.

[51:18] Olaf: I know. I do like the fact that we do get to see the scar. John's scar. Yes, I did like that. Get the scar love that you see on the adult John Connor in the earlier films. Right. But you didn't need the metal through the the chest heart.

[51:33] J.J.: So you need a transplant thing, which, by the way, if you if you watch that and you see him take that metal through the chest, he's dead. He's dead. Game over. Yeah. He's not coming back from that. He did not survive because not only did especially there was enough time to pull him out of the factory, then the sun to rise, chopper and have a conversation with people before.

[52:02] J.J.: Welcome back to Part 2 of our Terminator series!

[52:32] Olaf: We're diving right into Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines.

[53:02] J.J.: This film really marked a shift in the franchise, didn't it?

[53:04] Olaf: Absolutely! It was the first one without James Cameron at the helm.

[53:06] J.J.: And you can definitely feel that difference in tone and style.

[53:08] Olaf: Right? The humor was more pronounced, and it felt more like an action-comedy at times.

[53:10] J.J.: I think they were trying to appeal to a broader audience, but it didn't quite land for everyone.

[53:12] Olaf: Yeah, and the CGI was a bit hit or miss.

[53:14] J.J.: The T-X was a cool concept, but the execution felt lacking compared to the practical effects of the earlier films.

[53:16] Olaf: Exactly! The practical effects in the first two movies were groundbreaking.

[53:18] J.J.: And the story... it felt like they were trying to recapture the magic but missed the mark.

[53:20] Olaf: For sure. The whole "Judgment Day" theme was still there, but it felt more like a rehash.

[53:22] J.J.: And the character development was pretty thin.

[53:24] Olaf: Yeah, I mean, John Connor was supposed to be this leader, but he felt more like a side character.

[53:26] J.J.: And the addition of the female Terminator was interesting, but it didn't add much depth.

[53:28] Olaf: Right! It was more about the action sequences than the story.

[53:30] J.J.: Speaking of action, the highway chase scene was pretty intense!

[53:32] Olaf: That was definitely a highlight! The stunts were impressive.

[53:34] J.J.: But overall, it just didn't have the same emotional weight as the first two films.

[53:36] Olaf: Agreed. It felt more like a cash grab than a genuine continuation of the story.

[53:38] J.J.: So, moving on to Terminator Salvation, what were your thoughts on that one?

[53:40] Olaf: I actually appreciated the shift to a post-apocalyptic setting.

[53:42] J.J.: It was a bold move! It felt fresh compared to the previous entries.

[53:44] Olaf: And Christian Bale as John Connor brought a different energy to the role.

[53:46] J.J.: But the film had its own issues, especially with pacing.

[53:48] Olaf: Yeah, it dragged in parts, and some of the character arcs felt underdeveloped.

[53:50] J.J.: The introduction of Marcus Wright was intriguing, but I think they could have done more with it.

[53:52] Olaf: Definitely! The twist with his character was interesting but felt rushed.

[53:54] J.J.: And the ending... it was a bit anticlimactic for me.

[53:56] Olaf: Same here! It felt like they were setting up for a sequel that never happened.

[53:58] J.J.: It's a shame because there was potential for more stories in that universe.

[54:00] Olaf: For sure! But overall, both films had their moments, even if they didn't quite live up to the originals.

[54:02] J.J.: Well, that's the nature of franchises, I guess.

[54:04] Olaf: Exactly! Sometimes they hit, and sometimes they miss.

[54:06] J.J.: So, what do you think the future holds for the Terminator franchise?

[54:08] Olaf: It's hard to say. They've tried rebooting it a few times, but nothing has really stuck.

[54:10] J.J.: Yeah, it seems like they keep going back to the well, hoping for a different result.

[54:12] Olaf: Maybe they need to take a break and let the franchise rest for a bit.

[54:14] J.J.: That could be the best move. Sometimes less is more.

[54:16] Olaf: Agreed! Well, that's a wrap on our Terminator discussion.

[54:18] J.J.: Thanks for joining us, everyone! Be sure to subscribe and follow us on social media.

[54:20] Olaf: We'll catch you next time for more cinematic adventures!